Roundtable
Vegetarianism-
The Roundtable Open Forum XVIII: March 3 - 9
Editor
The Rules of the forum are posted here on the right, and need to be followed strictly by all participants.
The following is this week's (March 3 - 9) topic for discussion, which should focus on the questions posed therein:
VEGETARIANISM
1 Section 3(1) m of the Rehat Maryada - the Sikh Code of Conduct - which applies to all Sikhs equally, has only one reference to meat in the entire document. It says in unequivocal terms that Sikhs are prohibited from eating halal meat - that is, which has been produced through ritualized slaughter.
2 If this isn't clear enough, the official English translation of the Rehat Maryada carries a footnote on the same page, as follows:
"The Sikhs eat Jhatka meat, i.e., the flesh of a bird or animal that has been killed with one stroke and not by the slow process favoured by the Mohammedans."
3 To be perfectly clear, Sikhs are not required to eat meat; they are free to choose a vegetarian life-style. But, simply put, meat is not prohibited from the Sikh diet; that is, neither pork nor beef nor anything else. The only requirement is that if you do choose to eat meat, it should be killed in the jhatka manner; that is, in a single stroke, without any ritualization over a slow and prolonged process ... such as the Muslim halal method which invloves bleeding an animal to death, but not allowing it to die until the full prayer has been recited.
4 Guru Nanak is equally unequivocal on the issue. He simply chides those as "moorakh" - ‘fools!' - who argue over the eating of meat. [GGS:1289.11]
5 There is no dispute that vegetarianism, if practiced in a balanced way, is a healthy alternative. It makes a good life-style choice ... but to choose to be a vegetarian or not is not a religious choice - it has nothing to do with religion, certainly nothing to do with the practice of Sikhi. You can be a good Sikh as a vegetarian ... or as a non-vegetarian!
6 Though some fringe groups have tried to promote vegetarianism in the past - even as early as late 19th century - the idea of it being as a religious requirement was always rejected by contemporary and highly respected scholars and Elders, and the Akal Takht. Since a few decades, however, as hindu practices have crept into and contaminated current Sikh practice, especially in independent and brahmin-dominated India, some more groups - all of them small and adding up to only a small percentage - have become strident in their claim that vegetarianism is mandatory.
7 The idea remains alien to mainstream Sikhi.
QUESTIONS TO PONDER
- Why do you think vegetarianism has become a religious fad in recent decades within some Sikh groups?
- Is the confusion being caused by the fact that Sikh langars are required to have a simple, vegetarian diet - which is purely for the reason of making langar accesible to all, rich and poor, and people of all backgrounds and persuasions?
- Are you a vegetarian or non-vegetarian? Is it through choice? What are your reasons?
- What has been your experience with respect to those who disagree with you on this issue? How do you treat those who are in the opposite ‘camp'? How do they treat you?
- Why is it that many vegetarians tend to become crusaders for their 'cause', while one never comes across a non-vegetarianism putting pressure on others to eat meat?
- Is such proselytizing - even if it is merely in support of vegetarianism - consistent with Sikhi, especially in view of Guru Nanak's chiding, as described above?
- If you are vegetarian, do you eat fish? Eggs? Onions? Garlic? Or consume cow milk?
- What do you think about veganism? Is it better than vegetarianism?
Caveat: the issue here is not whether ‘vegetarianism' is good or bad ... but whether it is mandatory in Sikhi.
Conversation about this article
1: I.J. Singh (New York, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 8:34 AM.
Food taboos are common to many religions - Halaal in Muslims, Kosher (and what foods to avoid) in Jews; some Christian practices too come with food limitations; Hindus have many strongly held taboos; and now some welcome fresh air on Sikh beliefs and practices. Some may question their authenticity but parables and lore tell us that Guru Nanak cooked meet at a Hindu festival. Do you think it was discarded after being cooked? Wouldn't he and others have partaken of it? There is also the parable that Amardas, before he came to Sikhism, was an ardent devi worshipper, a Vaishnavite who avoided all meat. When he first came to see Guru Angad, fish was being served in langar. He was squeamish to accept, but realized that in the house of the Guru, he should accept gracefully whatever was offered. And so he did. History tells us that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were avid hunters and so were their Sikhs. What do you think the Gurus and their Sikhs did with the game that they killed, if not share and eat it? Then of, course, the case is sealed by citations from gurbani that tells us clearly that fools wrangle over the distinctions between greens and flesh. The golden rules advocate a life of modest consumption, and that all viands are acceptable except those that harm the body or mislead the mind.
2: Himmat Singh (Chandigarh, Punjab), March 03, 2010, 10:42 AM.
Prior to the Partition of Punjab and India, one of the many things that clearly set Sikhs apart from Hindus was the fact that Sikhs were non-vegetarians. The Partition, which resulted in the scattering of Sikhs across the newly-created India, brought about a marked change in the lives of Hindus. Many, for the first time, saw Sikhs in close surroundings. They looked up to them as superior to them and adopted some of their ways, while envying those that they could not imitate. Meat-eating gradually began to spread amongst the Hindus. I recall the first sign of it when purdaah-ed (screened) enclosures suddenly began to appear in restaurants in the Hindu-dominated areas, to enable Hindus to eat meat in secret, hidden from the public eye and away from their family members and friends. Slowly, meat-eating became more prevalent and acceptable, and the practice came out in the open. I lived through this period as a young man and recall all the conversations around this phenomenon. To suggest now that Sikhs are meant to be vegetarians is preposterous. Those who baldly state that Sikhs and the Khalsa have always been vegetarian are merely trying to justify their own choice ... if they only knew that they don't need to: vegetarianism is not prohibited either!
3: Amardeep (U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 11:25 AM.
Can someone comment on the related topic of alcohol (in terms of Sikhi) please? What are the recommendations regarding meat and alcohol after one partakes 'amrit'? [Editor: There is no prohibition against meat-eating. Re alcohol, we'll deal with that topic another day.]
4: Simon Rai (London, United Kingdom), March 03, 2010, 12:43 PM.
With any discussion on Sikhs and meat, the following quotes from the Guru Granth get in the way of a complete resolution. Would someone explain the contradictions, or should I say 'perceived contradictions'?. "O Kabir! The dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is (just) flavoured with salt. I am not ready to have my own throat cut to have meat with my bread? ||188||" [GGS:1374] "O Kabir! Those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell ||233||" [GGS:1377] "If in all is the one God, then why kill a chicken?" [GGS:1350]
5: Gurjender Singh (Maryland, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 1:08 PM.
I agree with the concept of moderation as mentioned by I.J. Singh. On the other hand, in langars, only vegetarian food is served to accomodate people from all religions and races and to avoid making anyone uncomfortable: non-vegetarians readily eat vegetarian food, but not vice versa.
6: Gurujot Singh (Espanola, New Mexico, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 1:54 PM.
I don't think it's fair to quote gurbani and make the point that you can be either veg or non-veg. Gurbani is esoteric, transcendental and universal. It doesn't give us do's and don'ts. that's what rehat is for. By the same token we can quote this line of gurbani for personal use in an argument to prove the point that the Guru doesn't require us to keep our hair; "Kabir, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart. You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald." [GGS:1365] I'm trying to make an example of taking a universal gurbani concept and trying to fit it to a lifestyle agenda which obviously contradicts the Khalsa rehat. I can find dozens of quotes that more than justify being vegetarian and environmentalist. But I'll just let you all think about this ... in a world where people are starving, do we as Sikhs want to consume a material which requires 16 times more water to produce than one loaf of bread? [i.e., 1 lb of beef equals 16 loafs of bread). I have to be honest and say that i think this topic was not presented in an accurate or neutral way, and some of the historical "facts" presented are questionable. Furthermore, if we take the whole halal theory, then we can take the same reasoning to consume intoxicants as long as they are not 'hookah' and we can have extra-marital sex as long as its not a 'harem'. Guru Gobind Singh said no halal, no harem, and no hookah. if we take it so literally all these kurehats lose their meaning. Rather we should take the broader meaning of these things to understand that Guru ji was telling us what kinds of actions not to do. Also, if we are only to eat jhatka meat, how many people actually eat jhakta meat with the animal killed in one strike, done ceremoniously, never killing a female animal, reading banis over the weapon, etc.? That's leaps and bounds away from justifying eating KFC or any other meat industry product.
7: Ravinder Singh Taneja (Westerville, Ohio, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 2:22 PM.
There may be a prohibition against meat-eating after one partakes "Amrit" from any one of a few specific groups - it all depends on when/ where the individual goes through the ceremony. In other words, it depends on which group is sponsoring the ceremony.
8: GurSimar Singh Khalsa (Birmingham, United Kingdom), March 03, 2010, 2:22 PM.
With respect to Gurujot Singh ji's comments: 1) You have argued that we should not turn to the Guru Granth for answers on this issue - I guess, because Guru Nanak is quite clear and emphatic about the issue in it, saying it is foolish to even argue that one is good, the other bad. 2) You argue that we should look at the Rehat. Good ... and then you completely ignore what the Rehat Maryada says! There is only one Rehat Maryada that governs the Sikh community today. 3) You have ignored the fact that no one is arguing against the merits of vegetarianism. You have already won this issue! The point in THIS discussion is - it has nothing to do with religion, as Guru Nanak says. Yes, it has everything to do with health and social issues. 3) Since when did the argument hold water that some people do not follow the rules, therefore there should be no rules? Gurujot ji: please read the topic carefully - you are trying to make a point that doesn't need to be made; it is already conceded. And you have totally avoided the issue at hand. Baldly stating that some of the historical facts listed are inaccurate is not good enough. Which ones? And what are the CORRECT facts according to you? Bald and unsubstantiated claims do not an argument make.
9: Jasvinder (Hamilton, New Zealand), March 03, 2010, 3:09 PM.
It is all in choices, and what we make of them according to the information we have. If someone is vegetarian or not today, it is based on certain political, social or religious information they have. So, if I choose according to what I know, being vegetarian or not is a personal choice, which we should make based on the right knowledge and logic, and according to the appropriateness of the situation. Whenever we make a choice, it should be based on consideration of the surroundings as well. Maybe it was alright to be a meat eater a few hundred years ago, because the population of the world was less, and the resources we had could have been shared with everyone equally without harming the environment. But today, the population of the world is increasing and the resources are still the same. If I make a choice to be vegetarian today, it is based on the logic and the consequences of my actions. Like Gurujot Singh ji said, it takes more resources to be a meat eater, that is one of the reasons when I make the choice of being a vegetarian. There are other reasons as well, like whether I would like someone eating me one day in the future, when resources are so diminished. The point I am trying to make is that our choice to be vegetarian or not should be based on the right information, open-mindedness and consequences of our choice rather than what religion says, that is what Guru nanak is trying to say. Choices should be appropriate to the situation, like we don't serve meat in langar because it not the right thing to do for certain reasons. I do eat meat as well if it is presented to me, but most of the time I choose the vegetarian option because I am trying to make a conscious effort to do the right thing, and not follow any religious requirement on this issue.
10: Bal Singh (London, England), March 03, 2010, 3:28 PM.
I think it is well worth looking at Dabistan on this subject. The author claims to be a contemporary of Guru Hargobind and Guru Har Rai. I've taken the following translations of the original Farsi from "Sikh History From Persian Sources" (Eds. Grewal & Habib, 2001): "Many people became his [Guru Nanak's] disciples. Nanak believed in the oneness of God and in the way it is asserted in Muhammadadan theology. He also believed in transmigration of souls. Holding wine and pork to be unlawful, he [himself] abandoned eating meat. He decreed avoidance of causing harm to animals*. It was after his time that meat eating spread amongst his followers. Arjan Mal, who was one of his lineal successors, found this to be evil. He prohibited people from eating meat, saying "This is not in accordance to Nanak's wishes". Later, Hargobind, son of Arjan Mal, ate meat and took to hunting. Most of their [the Guru's] followers adopted this practice." Also: Among the Sikhs, none of the austerities and customary forms of worship of the Hindus have any currency. Thus when Pratap Mal Gyani saw a Hindu youth who wished to become a Muslim, he told him. "Why do you wish to become a Muslim? If you are inclined to eat everything, become a Sikh of the Guru and then eat everything you wish." Footnote here in translation also gives an alternative extended account.
11: Kuljeet Kaur (Idaho, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 4:20 PM.
When we have Guru Nanak's words in the Guru Granth sahib ... and the Rehat Maryada ... speaking unequivocally on the subject, why are we looking at questionable Persian records which were produced with dubious accuracy, by people with other or vested interests, in a culture which has no history or pattern of recording things with exactitude? How desperate are we to convert the rest of the world to our own life-style, and find even spurious things to back our positions? If people want to be vegetarian, all power to you. Just stop telling me how wonderful it is and go home and enjoy your vegetables! Or are you willing to listen to me tell you how wonderful a seek-kebab or a chicken tikka is? Get a life, guys!
12: Harijot (Espanola, New Mexico, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 4:24 PM.
Okay, homies: a fun discussion going on here and I couldn't resist! I'm vegetarian and I don't mind if others eat meat. Go for it. I just wanted to bring one more thing into consideration. If one's communication is overly harsh, it is said that they bark like a 'dog'. If one acts with unsophistication and consumes too much, they are called a 'pig'. If one deceives others, they are called a 'snake'. If one moves too slow, they are called a 'snail'. If one habitually reacts with fear, they are called a 'scaredy cat' or a 'chicken'. If one is fickle, they are called a 'monkey'. Such people may want to think twice about eating meat because they may be about to commit cannibalism! Cannibalism scares me ... maybe I'm a chicken! I know it sounds funny, but think about it. Actually, maybe don't think about it, Guru ji warns us of thinking as well. I'll end this with a joke because I think it's important to understand the humour in this vachitar naatak we are participating in. Once there was a guy who quoted Guru Nanak saying, "How foolish it is to argue about whether to eat meat or be vegetarian." Then the guy proceeded to argue ... Guess what he was arguing about? Then, guess what we're all arguing about? Hilarious, isn't it! OK have fun everyone. Guru ji bless us children to treat each other with kindness so we can reach more and more chardi kalaa!
13: Bishen Kaur (New York, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 4:45 PM.
Dear Harijot ji: I enjoyed your light-hearted take on the discussion. In the same vein: I have a friend who is as lean as a stick; his son is growing like a sprout; his little one is plump as a tomato ... Does that make vegetarians cannibals? Remember, there is also a word for these mind games in the Guru Granth - "chaturaayiaan"! Clevernesses! The Guru warns us that they get us nowhere!
14: Bal Singh (London, United Kingdom), March 03, 2010, 5:12 PM.
I hope people haven't misunderstood my contribution. I believe the correct Sikh position is freedom of choice on this issue. The only thing that is explicitly prohibited in terms of diet is halal meat. Jhatka has a long and strong provenance in the panth but yes, some Sikhs do choose vegetarianism. Nonetheless, hunting and jhatka are practices that date back to puratan Sikhs, and continue today ... that, none can deny.
15: Prabhu Singh Khalsa (Española, New Mexico, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 5:21 PM.
From the discussion so far, I think the most pertinent points from gurbani have been stated. First, Guru Nanak is referenced: "The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom." [GGS:1289] Then Kabir is referenced: "I am not ready to have my own throat cut to have meat with my bread? ||188||" [GGS:1374] These are both instructions from our beloved Siri Guru Granth Sahib. The First Guru Ji says: fools argue without any gian or dhian (wisdom and meditation). Then Guru Ji (through the words of Kabir), which contains all gian and dhian, writes from that perspective that it is essentially okay to eat meat so long as we're willing to give our lives as a sacrifice in the same manner. That sounds fair to me. If you want to eat meat, be prepared for your throat to be cut and your body to be eaten. As a vegetarian, I'm certainly ready for my body to be composted and used for the production of crops!
16: Harijot (Espanola, New Mexico, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 5:36 PM.
Thank you, Bishen Kaur. I wanted to be light-hearted because I felt like changing the tone of the conversation. It seemed a little fruity to me ... WAIT!! Oh no!! There are so many people who are fruits out there! I love eating fruits. Oh man, when I look at it, my options are severely limited now ... Well ... I guess I can always eat star fish, I've never heard anyone described as a star fish. Actually better than that, I've never heard anyone say, "Dude, you're such an aloo parontha". [Editor: Where I come from, they say "You aloo dum!" - 'Aloo dum' is a form of potato curry.] As long as we can still eat aloo paronthe, there's still hope. On a more serious note though, you're right about the cleverness. The point is: If one is searching for answers and truth, one will never find satisfaction through the mind. Intuition is king. Intellectual discussions won't take us there (too often they are way too intellectual and too often they are not discussions, they are arguments). Whatever we happen to be talking about, let's not forget to be kind. That is why we take hukams from the Guru, because it addresses our consciousness right on the spot, perfect for that moment. We can't be fooled with all the false answers produced in our minds. Even when it comes to what we think we know about our 'religion'. Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib ji, master guide for the human intuition.
17: Gurvinderpal Singh (San Francisco, California, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 5:43 PM.
For the first 18 years of my life, I ate tons of meat. Now, being in my mid-20s, I realized that giving up meat was one of the best decisions I actually made. I am not trying to pass judgement, but seriously think about it ... If you can't feel the pain and suffering of the life you took to give you life, what type of person are you, how can you be 'spiritual"? How can you do any bhagti at all, if for dinner you took a life. There are a couple of flaws that I've noticed those defending their meat-eating, have used. 1) Guru Ji says: "No halal, only jhatka." Right? I've asked many why halal is bad and jhatka good? They say because the animal "suffers" when killed in a slow and prolonged ritual, so jhatka is allowed because it is relatively humane. Right? Have you seen or heard of the inhumane treatments animals have suffered at the hands of the meat industry? It's really disgusting. I personally worked in a restaurant and dealt with meat, where I had to put it through the grinder, make patties, and then cook them on the grill. It was sickening ...
18: Gurcharan Singh (Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada), March 03, 2010, 5:56 PM.
Gurvinderpal ji: You are absolutely correct in YOUR decision: I agree, YOU should not eat meat! Now, let me make MY own decision. I'll do MY own research and I'll come to MY own conclusions. I don't want any Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my proverbial door, haranguing me as to why I should turn vegetarian. See, I didn't once say you are wrong, or that YOU should eat meat, or why YOU should eat meat. Please accord the same courtesy to me and the rest of the world.
19: Hari Singh (London, United Kingdom), March 03, 2010, 6:33 PM.
Of the four transgressions which will effectively remove you from being a Amritdhari Sikh, i.e., a Khalsa, is: eating halal meat. In the event of such a transgression, the transgressor must get re-baptised i.e. retake amrit. However, the Guru Granth Sahib sets other limits which are even more strict and more relevant to any practicing Sikh: 'kabir bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi/ tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi' - [GGS:1377] Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine, no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.
20: Mohan Singh Ahluwalia (Toronto, Ontario, Canada.), March 03, 2010, 7:00 PM.
Vegetarian or non-vegetarian, let it be your choice. Fruits and green vegetables are much healthier than meats. By and large, weak animals are sent to the slaughter house and there is the risk of a variety of diseases. And it affects your temperament too. Your doctor needs to know your drink and food habits, because if you are vegetarian, a small dose of medicine will be effective on you, whereas if you are a non-vegetarian, it will require a higher dose. A spiritual person practicing meditation will not be able to concetrate effectively. Your thoughts keep changing and travel faster with gaseous food such as meat, dry beans and grains, etc.
21: Sangat Singh (Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia), March 03, 2010, 7:00 PM.
A holier-than-thou attitude for and against vegetarianism is bad on both counts. Even the devil, they say, can cite scripture for his purposes. The building block of life is water: 'Pahilaa paanee jee-ohai jit haria-aa sabh ko-ay' and 'jaytay daanay annkay jee-aa baajh na ko-ay' [GGS:872] - 'First, there is life in the water, by which everything else is made green and as many are the grains of corn, none is without life.' Are you going to stop taking antibiotics because they kill seen and unseen germs, or stop killing mosquitoes, flies and ants, which we do without even thinking. Have the Jains become holier for their strict vegetarian code? In fact, this is one religion that was severely admonished in the Guru Granth Sahib. To eat or not to eat meat is a personal choice, and to quarrel on this issue has been conclusively addressed by Guru Nanak: 'Gun mande kar sil/ ghi-o sarm mas ahar' - 'Make virtue your bread, good conduct the ghee, and modesty the meat to eat' [GGS:553]
22: Gurujot Singh (Espanola, New Mexico, United States), March 03, 2010, 8:32 PM.
I can appreciate people resenting the holier-than-thou thing. And preaching and proselytizing aren't Sikhi approaches. But it seems to me this issue is being confused from "Is meat eating allowed in Sikhi?" to "Why are vegetarians so preachy?" The point we are trying to get at here is whether or not we think the Gurus intended for us to eat meat or not. I sympathize that you might have some obnoxious vegetarians in other aspects of your life haggling you about your dietary choices. That's not what this is. This is us GurSikhs trying to hash out what our path is, or is intended to be. Please stop saying "back off and stop telling me what to do".
23: D.J. Singh (U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 8:38 PM.
Solar energy supplies light and heat to the plants for photo-synthesis. Herbivores eat plants. Carnivores eat meat. Omnivores eat both plants and meat. Decomposers break down nutrients in the dead plants and animals and return it into the soil. Plants utilize the nutrients from the soil to grow. Only life sustains life. We all utilize parts or products of living plants and animals to sustain our lives. The big fish eats the little fish. The little fish then becomes a part of the big fish. Both vegetarians and non-vegetarians destroy life to survive. That is the cosmic design!
24: R. Singh (Brampton, Ontario, Canada), March 03, 2010, 9:56 PM.
Someone has stated that after taking 'Pahul' - Amrit - there is to be no eating meat. Then what is the need for discussion about jhatka and halal in that case? Maryada is made by people and does not supercede the Guru Granth Sahib. The reference to 'kuttha' in Asa di Vaar is clearly about hypocrisy, and in another place about mindless slaughter in the early hours, which is the best time to meditate. Neither is about meat-eating methodologies, which clearly requires one to think and contemplate and make a suitable choice. When people start regulating eatables, religions go haywire.
25: K. Kaur (Canada), March 03, 2010, 10:35 PM.
Prabhu writes: "If you want to eat meat, be prepared for your throat to be cut and your body to be eaten." The one thing I really despise about religions such as Christianity, Islam and Hinduism is their use of guilt, hell fire and damnation to influence and control people. I was under the impression this was not the case with Sikhi! Your comments tell me more about your state of mind than about what the Gurus said or did! Please take your scare tactics elsewhere ... these are against the essence of Sikhism.
26: Gurmeet Kaur (Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A.), March 03, 2010, 11:18 PM.
Would those who claim that vegetarianism is a Hindu practice that has crept into Sikhism, kindly substantiate the reasoning and intent behind that thought or labeling? All the Hindus I grew up with were meat eaters. I am a vegetarian and so are thousands of Sikhs I know, and again for the right reason. Vegetarianism has its merit not merely in health, but mostly in consciousness. And, Sikhi is the faith of awakened consciousness; it longs to serve and to sacrifice one's wants in order to serve others' needs and to nurture the environment. Personally, my reasons stem from caring for the environment and consuming less for myself so that there is some for others (as Gurujot Singh explains) but also because of a virtue that is extolled in gurbani as the mother of all virtues. It is called compassion; without compassion there is no dharam, says Guru Sahib in the Japji.
27: H.Singh (San Diego, California, U.S.A.), March 04, 2010, 1:59 AM.
Without ever going into religious scriptures to justify any conclusions, I personally look upon vegetarianism the same way as Gurvinderpal Singh mentioned. The West has also started to understand the benefits of vegetarianism in leading more environmentally sustainable and spiritually fulfilling way of life. It is no surprise that recently India was named the most green country in the world: thanks to the eco-friendly cultural practices typically found in its villages. A vegetarian diet is equally an important component in this as are other cultural practices such as the nurturing of trees and the use of earthen pots to store water. To point D.J Singh made about symbiotic relationship between herbivores and carnivores to sustain themselves, I believe an exception has to made for humans. Because man is the most powerful and logical of all the species in the animal kingdom and can do anything he likes - decimate or preserve them. I believe it is the moral duty of man not to factory-farm, kill and eat them.
28: Paneet Singh (Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada), March 04, 2010, 3:42 AM.
"Are you a vegetarian or non-vegetarian? Is it through choice? What are your reasons?" This was one of the questions to ponder. Gurcharan Singh, you asked Gurvinderpal Singh to stop "haranguing" you to stop eating meat. He just implored everyone to look at it from his perspective. Which, I am sure, is as respectable and courteous as yours. His tone was not one of passing judgment and being disrespectful. He was merely voicing his viewpoint. But no worries, I'm sure it was an innocent misconception. Let's just not get overly defensive, eh? :)
29: Simon (London, United Kingdom), March 04, 2010, 7:21 AM.
I am glad that we have cleared the air: in conclusion, Sikhs can eat meat and also, gurbani is esoteric, transcendental and universal (Gurujot Singh), and it follows that it is foolish to quote from the gurbani without 'true' understanding (Piri). "Fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom." [GGS:1289] In that regard, it seems to me that most of these discussions on the temporal level are futile but at the same time necessary as the majority of Sikhs, like myself, read gurbani literally without a spiritual understanding, but not for the lack of trying.
30: Brijinder Singh (New York City, U.S.A.), March 04, 2010, 10:24 AM.
I have had this exact argument with many of my friends. I know of amritdharis who eat meat and those that don't. The ones that don't find it blasphemous when I tell them that only halaal meat is forbidden. Some have even questioned whether I follow the Guru Granth Sahib or some kind of baba. It can sometimes be frustrating to deal with such ignorance.
31: R.S. Minhas (New York, U.S.A.), March 04, 2010, 10:38 AM.
Vegetarianism, I believe is the gold standard to strive for. It is very funny that in order to enjoy personal liberties, people quickly blame all restrictions as "brahmin" concepts that need to be opposed! The fact is that many brahmins eat meat and are divided on this subject themselves. Everyone, including meat-eaters, draw a line somewhere. Whether it's vegetarian food, white meat, red meat, spiders, roaches, snakes, monkeys, all the way up the food chain to humans. If one believes that humans have the highest form of consciousness, then eating plants, the lowest form of consciousness, inflicts minimal suffering. Why not draw the line at the lowest level, sparing all those poor souls that are born as chicken or mice in the cycle of birth-death? Killing humans is accepted as part of war, but killing someone outside of war and self-defence is considered murder. In the same way, taking antibiotics to kill disease is acceptable and not inconsistent with vegetarianism. It is an informed conscious decision.
32: Prabhu Singh Khalsa (Española, New Mexico, U.S.A.), March 04, 2010, 12:23 PM.
K.Kaur ji: I totally agree with you. I'm not trying to make people feel guilty. I'm interpreting what I believe Kabir ji stated. However, I also believe that if you're a Sikh and you're not ready to constantly face death, you're not trying hard enough. I've faced death too often to allow for fear of death. That would truly ruin my spirit and my day. If I ate meat, I would accept the consequence that the suffering and death caused to animals is a karmic weight which I'm taking upon my own head.
33: Sukhmandir Kaur (California, U.S.A.), March 04, 2010, 9:21 PM.
I was born into a vegetarian family, my grandchild is 5th generation vegetarian. I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that being vegetarian is a fad. Vegetarianism goes back thousands of years. Certainly Sikh langar has been vegetarian since its inception and has always been so in the Harmandar Sahib. The purpose of living the Sikh life style is to overcome the ego which is not possible when taking the life of another needlessly. Meat is not necessary for sustaining human life and actually it's consumption causes many illnesses in the body. It is also detrimental to the animal population and the environment of our planet. When you study rehat namas which existed since Guru Gobind Singh established the Khalsa, it becomes apparent that rather than vegetarianism being the new fad of Sikhism, actually meat eating is the new fad, cooked up by the 1937 committee who drafted the current rehat maryada (incidentally the same goes for kes/ keski). I believe this is to encourage greater numbers of people as a starting point in Sikhism, a means but not an end, or enlightened lifestyle. There is no use in arguing about it for no one can be forced to realization, nor can it be explained, but must be arrived at by humility and grace.
34: Kartar Singh Bhalla (New Delhi, India), March 05, 2010, 4:48 AM.
Three points arise: If Guru Gobind Singh prohibited 'kuttha/ halal' meat, that implies that he was not against eating meat, but against eating a certain kind of meat. Two, jhatka meat is available only in Punjab; not in other states, and not in other countries, by and large. What do meat-eating Sikhs eat in the diaspora? Three, in India and the world over, hotels serve meat dishes which are not jhatka. What to do in such hotels? Is it practical to be a globe-trotter and still not eat meat?
35: Karan Singh (United Kingdom), March 05, 2010, 5:44 AM.
What I find most ironic is that the people that keep stating that eating meat is acceptable as long as it is jhatka, are the same people you will find eating chicken wings at KFC and Nand's. KFC and Nand's meat is not jhatka - but do they really care? Not really. Any excuse to serve their own taste buds!
36: I.J. Singh (New York, U.S.A.), March 05, 2010, 12:31 PM.
The lines of Kabir that go "Bhang supari sura paan ..." are oft-quoted to support the idea that the Guru Granth does rejects meat-eating. If that were so, the lines of the Guru Granth on page 1289 stand in stark contradiction when Guru Nanak refuses to be drawn into what he considers a distraction. In fact Kabir then, it seems to me, needs to be interpreted not quite so literally. He is, in fact, not speaking about the specific items - bhang, supari, sura, paan etc. - he is speaking in an idiomatic expression of a life-style, much as in colloquial Punjabi we might refer pejoratively to a "sharabi-kababi." We do not mean that a person who eats kababs or fish is wrong or evil; we are saying that a self-centered lifestyle spun around, largely if not exclusively, consumerism and the pleasures of life, is not a desirable goal. These expressions emerge from the culture of Punjab. Language merely mirrors the culture. So I would ask that we interpret Kabir ji similarly and not literally.
37: Gurmeet Kaur (Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A.), March 05, 2010, 3:20 PM.
What ever you eat, eat with consciousness. Please see a photo-essay at my green blog. http://greengurmeet.blogspot.com/2010/03/what-ever-you-eat-eat-with-consciouness.html
38: Prabhu Singh Khalsa (Española, New Mexico, U.S.A.), March 06, 2010, 11:31 PM.
I.J. Singh Ji, your comment made me wonder. If you are going to take Kabir's words as a metaphor, rather than literally, shouldn't we also take the 'halal' meat metaphorically and apply it to all meat? Or shouldn't we take Kabir's words to generally mean meat, drugs and alcohol? Also, I don't see how his clear condemnation of fish, wine and marijuana contradict Guru Nanak's message. Guru Nanak said that people who argue about this issue are fools. But Kabir had all the gyan and did tons of dhyan, he is very well qualified to enter the discussion and be authoritative rather than debatable. Personally, I take the Guru literally and figuratively. I believe Guru Ji is condemning the three specific things as well as the general categories under which these items fall.
39: Nirmal Singh Nilvi (Texas. U.S.A.), March 07, 2010, 12:08 AM.
Vegetarianism in Sikhism: the topic can be juicy but the response has veered around the edges only. Sikhs are well known for three 'F's' in social circles: Food, Fun and Friendship. Sikhs love to eat good food, are good company and always display a warm, welcoming and hospitable attitude. And the credit for these attributes goes to Sikh women, in my opinion. I thought the discussion will highlight more of these attributes. The purpose of eating is to remain alive and healthy. Therefore the genuine approach to the issue requires us to be focused more on the food that is good for each one of us. Sikhs love to cook and eat food predominantly on the basis of taste. This ought to be the first item of concern in the current environment. Next on the list ought to be saturated fats. We know the newly discovered fact: the more fatty the ingredients, the better the taste. After that, fried vs. grilled should be the logical next concern. This critical aspect has been sidelined in the discussion. The over-whelming response to the subject should not be a surprise. Punjabis are also known to be the argumentative type. If the discussion is nudged that way, the 'veg vs. non-veg' issue will be pushed down so much in a spirited discussion, we won't have time or remember to talk about it. We are all We are also familiar with the good old Punjabi trait of enjoying a discussion by arguing. Otherwise, why attach a religious angle to an important health related issue as this one is? We were reminded that Guru Nanak considered discussing this issue as a distraction. Yet we took the bait. That ought to mean something for the contributors who love to quote from gurbani. I hope I am wrong, but the pro-veg participants have used many emotional angles to prevail. Vegetarian langar, consciousness, concern for other species are examples that come to mind. They know Sikh scriptures are neutral on the issue. I don't mean to be pro non-veg in saying this. I enjoyed learning from the gurbani-laced latent depth in the spirited discussion otherwise. The most heartening to observe is the fact that few missed to uphold one of the cardinal Sikh tenets: our freedom to chose. May I request everybody to join in saying 'jo bole so nihal' to that.
40: Simran (Oceanside, U.S.A.), March 08, 2010, 2:14 AM.
Are there any gurdwaras around the world that serve meat for langar? [Editor: There's at least one in India, a historical one commemorating the place where one of the Gurus used to go hunting. There is a sakhi associated with it ... hopefully, one of our readers can fill in the blanks. It is renowned for serving "shikar" meat.]
41: Gaurav Singh (United States), March 08, 2010, 10:19 AM.
Rather than quoting part of one or more lines of gurbani, we should be authentic and quote them within the context of that shabad, which is in the Rahao or in the Pauri (where there is no Rahao). It also helps to look to the surrounding shabads to know the topic under consideration. Now, kindly interpret Kabir Sahib's Shabads, referred above, to find the Gur (distinction). Please note that it has nothing to do with "meat". I shall provide my perspective by understanding an entire Shabad and offering what I have learnt within the context of the complete Shabad. It helps that a shabad by Guru Nanak deals exclusively with "meat". Please refer to the entire Shabad Malhar [GGS, M1,1289-90], which includes the line "maas maas kar moorakh jhaggrre ...", part of which was quoted above. However, the interpretation given above is incorrect, because it is not derived following elementary rules of grammar. "moorakh" has an aunkarh on the kakha, which makes it singular (not plural), hence we cannot take the easy road of "well, we are all fools ...", as we miss the point in doing so. Guru Sahib is referring to a particular type of person he calls 'moorakh'. If you can read Punjabi, then please go to Prof. Sahib Singh's translation of this Shabad on p. 56 of the pdf, the shabad that starts with "pahilan maason nimia ..." and read the entire shabad, including the pauri. Here is the link: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/pdf/1276-1300.pdf - This is the Panth Parvanit interpretation of the Guru Granth by Prof. Sahib Singh who developed the study of the Guru Granth according to its own grammatical rules. The moorakh (ignorant fool) that the Guru is referring to here is the pundit, or the 'learned person' who sits in judgment of others because of what they eat. Guru Sahib explains that we are all meat and that an ignorant fool does not eat 'bhakh' - that which is fit to eat - food, including so-called meat, yet will eat 'abhakh' - that which is not fit for consumption - 'paraya haq', that which belongs to others. Guru Nanak says that those who cannot make this distinction and judge others are guided by a blind zeal ('andh guru'). If we sit in judgment of others because of what they eat, or think ourselves superior because of what we eat, then we are the moorakh referred to by Guru Nanak. A short take on the "halal" issue, since it too is clearly misunderstood. Halal means that which is acceptable. Its opposite is haram (unacceptable). Broadly speaking, and not speaking from the corrupted understanding of these words, we should all eat halal and not haram. That said, Muslims' dietary restrictions compel them not only to eat that which is halal (acceptable), but also Zabiha (the way in which the animal is slaughtered) to be fit for consumption by Muslims. "Halal" is simply a condition, for Muslims, that goats and cows are halal, while pigs are not. It is a distinction between necessary but not sufficient. According to the Guru Granth, Sikhs should also eat that which is fit to eat (food and 'haq di kamaayi') and not eat that which is not fit to be eaten ('paraaya haq'). The only addition to this rule is the Panth's directive that the food should not be prepared in a ritualistic manner, akin to Muslims who recite prayers that make it indistinguishable from a sacrifice. This particular mention to Muslims is troubling, but something the Panth shall hopefully deal with in due time. Akal Sahai!
42: Gurpal (Wolverhampton, United Kingdom), March 08, 2010, 3:34 PM.
Simran, there are many 'Bhatra' gurdware in the United Kingdom that serve or have served meat, particularly at weddings. I have had breakfast of sausages, bacon, egg, etc. at the langar at Southampton Bhat Sangat Gurdwara and I am aware of meat being served at many others. At the Copper Street Bhatra Gurdwara in Cardiff, I was invited to my landlord's grandson's birthday party; the party was held in the langar hall downstairs (upstairs was locked up): meat dishes (and sharab) were served. I popped in and left early!
43: R.S. Minhas (New York, U.S.A.), March 08, 2010, 4:21 PM.
Dear Gaurav Singh, hypocrisy is born when the letter is followed in great detail, but not its spirit. Guru Nanak opposed hypocrisy in all its forms, especially coming from learned people. Becoming vegetarian, and then eating "paraya haq" is of course hypocrisy. The process of judging another person can be hypocritical due to our own personal failings at different levels. If hypocritical vegetarians are being reprimanded by the Guru, how does it automatically justify meat-eating? [Editor: It doesn't - all it shows is that Guru Nanak was not against the eating of meat.]
44: Jagtej (India), March 12, 2010, 1:56 PM.
In the beginning of this discussion, I.J. Singh ji mentioned that Guru Nanak had cooked and served meat and fish in langar. Where can I get more info on this?